Squats & Séances

Mycelium Mind with Pam Rivers: Exploring Alternative Paths to Mental Wellness

• Venessa Krentz • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Venture beyond conventional therapy into the transformative world of therapeutic psilocybin with Pam Rivers, a former trauma therapist who now guides clients through profound inner journeys. This conversation reveals the remarkable intersection between traditional mental health approaches and the emerging field of psychedelic-assisted healing.

Pam's story begins in what she calls "the trauma swamp" - decades working with society's most wounded individuals, from sex-trafficked youth to children trapped in foster care systems. This background has given her an unshakable presence that she now brings to her work as a transformation guide and psychedelic facilitator. "I know my way around hell," she shares candidly, explaining how this comfort with darkness serves her clients when they encounter challenging material during their journeys.

The episode carefully distinguishes between recreational use and therapeutic protocols, walking listeners through Pam's meticulous approach to both microdosing programs and "deep dive" journeys. Unlike the common misconception of psychedelic experiences being about visual hallucinations, Pam emphasizes that therapeutic work is "an inward journey" conducted with eye masks, carefully curated music, and professional support. Her descriptions of preparation, journey day, and integration offer rare insight into a process that remains mysterious to many.

Venessa provides crucial scientific context, explaining psilocybin's action on serotonin receptors and the default mode network, while debunking historical misconceptions about addiction potential. The conversation reveals how this medicine, once demonized during Nixon's war on drugs, is now showing remarkable promise for conditions ranging from depression to addiction.

Perhaps most valuable is the honest discussion about readiness and expectations. "It's magic, but it's not a panacea," Pam cautions, addressing the misconception that one journey will instantly heal deep trauma. Instead, she emphasizes the integration period where insights must be incorporated into daily life. For those curious about alternative approaches to mental health, this conversation offers a thoughtful, nuanced entry point into understanding the potential of psychedelic-assisted healing.

IG: @pam_rivers_guide

Substack: https://substack.com/@pamriverstransformation

E: pamriversguide@gmail.com

Analysis of Psilocybin-Assisted Therapy in Medicine: A Narrative Review - PMC

Psilocybin (Magic Mushrooms) | National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)

Neural mechanisms underlying psilocybin’s therapeutic potential – the need for preclinical in vivo electrophysiology


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Until the next time may you continue to live well, embrace authenticity, question everything, and of course, stay gritty.



Venessa Krentz:

Hi, Hi, welcome to episode two of Squats and Seances. Today's episode is extra special. We'll be discussing some controversial topics regarding the certified facilitated use of psilocybin, as it pertains to mental health, and alternative treatments to pharmaceuticals or other Western medicine. Convention Certified facilitated psilocybin use may or may not be legalized in your area. As we are going to present these alternative medicine pathways via open source information, a disclaimer is necessary. Hang tight while we get this out of the way.

Venessa Krentz:

The content of this podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. If you think you may have a medical emergency, call your physician or 911 immediately. The information presented is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Reliance on any information provided is solely at your own risk. All right, now that that's done, we can move on to the good stuff. Please join me in welcoming a very special guest to this podcast today, Pam Rivers. Welcome, Pam.

Venessa Krentz:

I'm so excited you're here.

Pam Rivers:

It's really good to see you, Venessa. I'm glad to be here, you too, you too.

Venessa Krentz:

I'm going to start off by reading a little introduction for our listeners. Pam Rivers is a seasoned therapist, transformation guide and psychedelic facilitator, blending over 35 years of therapeutic experience with plant medicine, with a background in therapy and growth and a deep commitment to personal transformation. Pam works with a diverse range of clients, from executives to artists, therapists, truck drivers, athletes, first responders and most anyone drawn to this work. Pam specializes in guiding people through the process of learning to tune into themselves and listen and then step into their power, beauty and wisdom, aligning their inner world with their outer world. A passionate writer, artist and athlete, pam also draws from her own deep personal journey, including the loss of her husband, and her ongoing creative, spiritual and ancestral exploration.

Venessa Krentz:

She is a guide and walks beside her clients in transformation. She offers partnership in deep diving, a journey of exploration into your deep, true self. In addition to all of that, pam is a dear friend and a mentor. She is an embodiment of feminine strength and wisdom, and I often find her perspectives invaluable. I believe she is both therapist and medicine woman, and I think you will agree by the end of this episode. Welcome, pam, thank you.

Pam Rivers:

Venessa, yeah, not glad to be here.

Venessa Krentz:

So excited. Yeah, I've got a lot of things I can't wait to talk with you about. I want to start with the name of this episode, mycelium, mind. It surfaced the name, maybe with a little bit of divine intervention, before I even had the bones of an outline for what I wanted to talk with you about. Mycelium is defined as the wood-wide web Insert bad dad joke right there. It is a network of tiny fungal threads that connect plants together. Network of tiny fungal threads that connect plants together, so the mycelium wrap around or bore into the tree roots, but they allow the network to transfer carbon, nitrogen, water and other minerals between plants in the mycorrhizal network. I felt like this was so apropos for our conversation today. Do you love it? I love it.

Pam Rivers:

It's kind of just how it is right, yeah, and what you and I experience in our work together, and and, yeah, and, and this work, it's all interconnected, that's so amazing Right off the bat.

Venessa Krentz:

one of the questions I'm going to ask every guest that comes on the podcast is what does gritty mean to you?

Pam Rivers:

I love that question. It means a lot of things, but I kind of there's two arenas in some ways that blend. But there's the grit that some of us are born with. That is courage. It's like seeking. It's people that are kind of wired for depth, wired for more kind of extreme experiences that seek. So there's that. And then there's the grit that you earn right when life happens and shit goes down right. So it's kind of both right. It's this thing that some of us you, me, I feel like we have. We were kind of born with this desire. We're built for depth, for meaning, for striving, for going for things that may be out of the norm. And life I've had a life, you've had a life that has not been easy and that creates great and that gives us strength. That's beautiful.

Venessa Krentz:

I love that. That's going to be a hard one to top. All right and move on to the next one. I touched on it briefly in your introduction, but can you share a little bit more about your formal clinical background and training, Can you?

Pam Rivers:

share a little bit more about your formal clinical background and training what you did in the first life, if you will. Yeah, so I am a properly trained therapist graduate degree. All of that A long time ago. I graduated in 1990, so a long time ago.

Pam Rivers:

I started out actually in early childhood psychiatric treatment. So I started in a day treatment program for preschool kids, right, so like three to six-year-olds. It was an education, it was amazing, I loved it. But in all the different ways that careers take us, I've moved into lots of different positions, of different positions, and the last chunk was working with really high need teens, primarily kids and teens. I always worked with kids and families. That was my whole thing, loved it, loved it, loved it. Always stayed kid and family focused, worked in all agencies, treatment programs, the whole gamut.

Pam Rivers:

But this last chunk I had a really unique job. I was on this kind of specialty team and we worked with kids in the state that had the highest level of acuity, the highest need in the state, and things just weren't getting better and we would come in and kind of assess the situation and build teams around the kids and then work together and it was like a journey right, like side by side, for things hopefully to get better somehow. We knew that things wouldn't disappear. But the populations that I worked with were kids that were in long-term foster care or trapped in foster care, growing up in foster care, disrupted adoptions, kids in the juvenile justice system, state hospital and then my little specialty area that I loved so much was working with sex trafficked kids.

Pam Rivers:

And yeah, I was in the trenches I call it the trauma swamp and I never wanted to like move up the food chain. I didn't want to be a supervisor, I didn't want to move up ever. I always wanted to be kind of frontline with the kids and the families. I never thought I would leave either. So when this came, it was I felt like it came out of nowhere because I never imagined myself actually doing anything but that. And if people like, if you had asked me five years ago, there was not a glimmer of this.

Venessa Krentz:

Isn't that amazing.

Pam Rivers:

Isn't that wild the universe is so crazy, it is so untamed and beautiful, and now I was talking to a good friend who's a former colleague. I cannot imagine doing that work again. The end it's not in me anymore Like I can't imagine it, but it absolutely informs what I do now, because I was, I worked in the underbelly of society. I worked with parents that did extreme harm to their kids, right, kids that were brutalized at times, right, some really dark, heavy stuff that people don't like to hear. What is that?

Venessa Krentz:

saying that I've heard you use before you describe. You know your way around Around hell.

Pam Rivers:

Yeah, you know my way around hell. I do, and I'm comfortable there. It doesn't scare me. I've been, I've seen a lot, you know, especially with the kids that I worked with. Really, the stories are unbelievable sometimes and I loved it. I loved being in there and helping to navigate towards better right and to navigate towards better, and so I feel like that. Absolutely it's who I am, and so in my work now everything's okay, everything. I don't think people could shock me, right, and and people can feel that in me, I believe that they know it's all good, even the like.

Venessa Krentz:

It doesn't matter the word that comes to mind when you're describing this is sturdy like unflappable, Because it's life.

Pam Rivers:

I mean, and life is brutal for many people, not for everybody, but for many people throughout time. The world can be brutal for some people and you know kids that got brought into situations they didn't ask for right, and so the reality is is that life is really tough sometimes and I do feel comfortable in those places. I do, yeah.

Venessa Krentz:

Wish there were more people like you to do that work. I was just going to say it is an interesting intersection, right To go from that work to now Transformation Guide, psychedelic Facilitator. Was there one moment, or were there a series of moments, that led to this pivot for you? And again I want to just clarify for any listeners psychology is the treatment of psychiatric conditions through behavior modification. This is very much a Western medicine approach. You've got protocols that you follow to try to get those behavior modifications to help the patient in the end Now work as a transformation guide and a psychedelic facilitator. So maybe two-part question. Could you touch on what is that to you transformation guide and psychedelic facilitator, and then what events unfolded that led you down this midlife pivot?

Pam Rivers:

I'll start with that part because it's almost fast and short. Surprisingly, literally, was a moment. I have a friend that he and I had worked together. He's a therapist too, and so we had kind of done the work thing together and we, I watched him transform. He did a series of three journeys. They were MDMA, psilocybin I think one of them was straight psilocybin and I watched him absolutely transform and come into this gorgeous thing and just like step into his life. And so one time one night we're sitting there talking and he's filling me in on the latest, what, this last journey, like what it was, and he stopped and he said, pam, I think you should do this work. I was like, oh my God, you're right, that was it. Beautiful, it's not wild.

Pam Rivers:

But I've had that in other times in my life where it's like this lightning bolt, there's this program I applied, wasn't sure I was going to get into. It was the first one in the state of actually in the United States that leads towards licensure in the state of Oregon. Amazing, yeah, and I wasn't sure I was going to get in. There were a ton of applicants. I got in and I'm like if I don't get in, I don't get in. I really wasn't attached to it, like I'll try again, but I knew that this was what I was going to do. Little bragging rights in the first hundred people in the United States, that is. That's amazing.

Pam Rivers:

Through formal training. State approved to be licensed in the state of Oregon. That being said, I am not licensed and I don't plan on it, because the license is only to work in service centers or clinics. Not my thing.

Venessa Krentz:

We're not good in that, you're more interested in working with the individual.

Pam Rivers:

Well, they do, individual, they do the same, a different model and honestly have to do it my way.

Venessa Krentz:

It's one of the things that I enjoy so much about you, though.

Pam Rivers:

Don't change. No, no, no, no.

Venessa Krentz:

Yeah, can't do it their way, and this is what you have referred to in the past as mushroom school, right Mushroom school.

Pam Rivers:

Yeah, mushroom school, okay school okay, yeah, it was great.

Venessa Krentz:

So in the first 100 to go through the program and offered in oregon, which is, which is your area of residence versus I'm in california is where I'm watching watch, yeah, and so we're.

Pam Rivers:

We're called underground, I call myself private practice. Underground seems a little slinking around kind of thing. I'm not gonna hide in the showers, I I'm not underground, I'm private practice. And to clarify, I don't provide or sell any mushrooms or any illegal products. People generally come to me having already decided to do this or they're close and maybe they need some screening. We need to make sure it's safe. They source their own. I can help them source it, but I don't sell or distribute or provide any illegal substances.

Venessa Krentz:

Yes, thank you. That's a good distinction to make, right.

Pam Rivers:

Yeah, so it was literally that. And then my path just unfolded and I left my career job about two and a half years ago a little more than two and a half years ago and so I'm running my own business and I've done that before all of it, and I am 100% word of mouth at this point. I've got an Instagram, but it's not an advertising place for me. It's been more than I imagined. I knew it was good coming in, but I had no true inkling about what was going to happen and what this work was going to be.

Venessa Krentz:

I can't wait, we're going to get into that too. I'm curious did you have any internal or external resistance to this transformation for you that you would feel comfortable sharing about that for individuals that are not necessarily following the same path that you went down, but just resistance to change like this, the way of exploring a new existence, a new way of being, whether that's a new career or a new way of just looking at a perspective of their life.

Pam Rivers:

I was surprisingly not as afraid as maybe I should have been giving paycheck benefits, all of those things right. I wasn't as afraid as maybe I should have been and it was just like clear and I lost some people. Like I lost friends and people pulled away from me, like there's just some distance. That happens in life, but this work, it's controversial for some people.

Venessa Krentz:

We're going to circle back to some of the misconceptions around the work that you do. It'll be really interesting to share with listeners too, but what I'm hearing is more kind of external people in overlapping circles of that Venn diagram of life that were like I don't want to associate with this and I'm afraid for you and therefore I don't. So let's get into more detail with what you feel comfortable sharing as far as the types of services, programs or protocols, treatment plans, whatever you call it within your practice that you offer. I know you and I have discussed prior there's different layers to your work, so I would love to just do broad strokes kind of what those different options are, and then I would like to circle back and do more detail. What does this involve? What does that involve so that people understand what you offer?

Pam Rivers:

Three-ish arenas, maybe four, three arenas. One is microdosing. I did not plan on getting into microdosing. That was actually not part of the plan and when I came into this I had a few people ask me about it. It was like they didn't really train us in microdosing. That wasn't part of mushroom school. It was really the deep dive stuff. We had a little sacrifice on it but it wasn't really part of it. So I did my own research and made my own program and I've got a six week program now that I lengthen and shorten, depending Everything that I do I also adapt to whoever like, whatever. So microdosing six-week program. And then with the deep dive, which is the medium to high dose, I start everybody on microdosing. So they get some of that too. So microdosing standalone program six weeks. I have people that repeat it over and over. I have somebody I think she's done it four times now. So it's something. Basically it's supported microdosing and we work. Well, we'll get into the details about that.

Pam Rivers:

Second arena is the deep dive. That's the medium to high dose. That's kind of what people think of when they think of this. Work is the big trips, right, the big journey. So with that it's a two month program. So we spend a month preparing the journey experiences over a weekend. So it's a three day process and then a month of integration and then I have some people that stay on after that. So two months. And then I offer retreats too and I do some specialty retreats. I've pulled away from that a little bit lately. Last summer I did a bunch of them and this summer I'm not, which is really interesting. I have one that I've done a few times. That's called Dinner with the Dead. I love that.

Venessa Krentz:

Yeah, I love that.

Pam Rivers:

Ancestrally, and so the preparation is around that, around acting and then literally inviting dead people to the weekend and to this dinner and then at the on the journey day. It's a low dose experience or no dose. And I bring a medium and a friend that's a medium. We have this whole experience. Then he comes in and he does readings with all of us and then he works with us to connect as well too, and then we do integration. It's powerful, oh.

Venessa Krentz:

I can imagine yeah.

Pam Rivers:

And then I've done sisters, I've done some family retreats, and then I do strangers. It's open and whoever comes comes First responder and frontline workers.

Venessa Krentz:

It's a really interesting demographic too. Is there anything in particular that you have found either draws our frontline workers, our first responders, our civil servants, in to this work that they're reaching out to you, or, on the opposite side of that, what does it give to them?

Pam Rivers:

Mostly they're drawn to it for trauma work. That's mostly in that I had this incredible group that I worked with for longer stretch microdosing group, retreat, lots of, and then some individual with some of them, and they were all. They had high levels of trauma. They'd been in an inpatient treatment facility together, a trauma-based facility. They were in residential treatment and then they came to me after that and we did this. It was so amazing because they'd done so much work. And then I get to come in. We get to come in and kind of finish some things and put some of the experience past where they belong. So for them it was really so much trauma work but also shedding, a lot of shedding, and one of the lines that kind of came through as one of the essences of our work together was a return to innocence. They were able to like add some of the heavy stuff and come back to innocence. They were able to like add some of the heavy stuff and back to themselves.

Pam Rivers:

So, yeah, people are drawn to this to do trauma work. And then I have some people that it's not about trauma at all. It's really a seeking, it's really wanting to expand. So it can be both. And when I came in, my thing was I'm not working with high trauma people anymore, but I had decided that I'm not. I'm just going to get in and then they just find you no, I can't help it. I love it so much I realize that I'm like no, I love it and I know that population, my work. I worked with law enforcement, a lot interfaced with law enforcement, juvenile justice, the court system, hospitals. They're my people too. So I can't not.

Venessa Krentz:

So I definitely keep a handle on how many kind of high needs people I don't do one time. I imagine there can be some significant compassion fatigue for everybody. I mean for these individuals that are looking for this guidance. That's powerful stuff right there.

Pam Rivers:

I don't get much compassion fatigue. I never did. It's really interesting, like with this work you would have thought I would have burned out, but I didn't burn out. I mean, towards the end I was so dumb but so many things were happening. It's how do you sort it out? Because I was already leaving and you know when you're leaving you're like one foot out the door yeah. But I didn't get it. It didn't tear me down, so, anyhow, I love that I get. I have those people here, that's amazing.

Venessa Krentz:

I want to circle back to the layers just to present this information. Is what this is intended to be to somebody that doesn't even know where to start researching this Microdosing? What does a microdosing protocol with you look like? And I won't ask you to give away all of your secrets, so we're not going to provide any dosing information for anybody. Just talk about here's the outline of what we do together, and then I'd love to compare that to the deep dive Okay, those two and be like here's microdosing, here's deep dive journey, and also feel free to add in on either of those examples. What is it not? You know you're not going to do this, or this isn't part of this, but it is part of this protocol.

Pam Rivers:

Well, I think first off, it's not for everybody. None of this is for everybody. There's screening, there are rule outs, right. There are reasons why people should not do this. So that's part of what I do is I screen people and there are rule outs right. There are reasons why people should not do this. So that's part of what I do, is I screen people and there are a few things there. You know, I don't have to go into all of that, but it's really important that it's safe and it's not safe for everybody.

Pam Rivers:

The other piece is that there needs to be, in most cases, a relative level of stability, Right. A relative level of stability as it brings stuff up is transformative, and so you need to be kind of on relatively solid ground. I think to. Not always, and I've taken, I have some clients that aren't on solid ground, but we know that and so it's we're careful, right. We may be slower, but in general.

Pam Rivers:

So with the micro dosing my six-week program I work with the client to find their therapeutic dose and in my experience there are kind of common microdose levels out there and many of my clients most of them are below what's out there in the literature and out there in the world about dosing. I work very closely with my clients to find their therapeutic dose and teach them how to do it themselves, so that they know what the feelings are, they know what they're going for, they know where, when it's too high, when it's too low. So there's that. So over the six weeks we start with an onboarding, a longer session where I go over the art and science of microdosing. So I talk about things like neuroplasticity, how it works in the brain, like what the science is, so that there's that piece of understanding.

Pam Rivers:

And then the art part is around cultivating this relationship with you and I, but also with the mushrooms, right. There's this piece that you start to learn. It's very relational, it's almost kind of interactive with the mushrooms and they guide you, and so what we're doing is we're tuning in, we're tuning in, and there I talk a lot about the portals. There are these kind of common denominator portals that typically open up for people when they're microdosing. So those portals, right, these areas that are common for change improved focus, all the stuff we hear about improved focus, creativity those things are typical experiences that people have. So in our work we're meeting weekly and working both with the client's intentions but also with what comes up, because there's always surprises and it takes you. It takes you to places that already exist in you but maybe need to be woken up or maybe need to kind of come alive again or be uncovered.

Pam Rivers:

So yeah, that's the microdosing, and also with the grower that I use, we have different strains, so people typically get two different strains, very different qualities and properties in different strains, which a lot of people don't know. Yes, that's interesting the mushrooms and the relational piece and things like ritual, bringing ritual into it, and all of those kind of softer pieces. So it's not just the technical side of taking a pill.

Venessa Krentz:

You can go anywhere you want.

Pam Rivers:

That's why I tell people if you want to go take a pill, go do it. But that's not what I do. We're not taking a pill, right? We're just not, and then that's fine.

Venessa Krentz:

And sometimes and it can be very valuable to just do it that way, but that's not what we're doing here. I've been a huge medical nerd, so I'm going to talk about that in a little bit. I'm glad you touched on it. How are you utilized in that process, you as the facilitator? What tools you bring in, what you're getting? Because what we're really talking about is this mind-body-spirit intersection. We've approached it from the psychological perspective of you know what does this do in the mind. But after you describe the deep dive, if you could touch on the spirituality component too and your role in that, that would be really great, either for you as the facilitator or for the individual.

Pam Rivers:

So deep dive is exactly that and start everybody on microdosing. I used to not that I came into, like I said, when I was trained we weren't really trained in it and I find that microdosing especially a lot of people who have never done this before, and it's scary, it's a big step for many people. And so to come in to the deep dive, to start with microdosing, we introduce it to the body, we see how your system handles it and then we can also figure out dosing better. But also it kind of primes the pump, so to speak. That's part of why I start people in microdosing.

Pam Rivers:

I've just started doing kind of an extended preparation where we do a longer microdosing series before the journey and we are preparing the month before. We're meeting for at least an hour a week and on zooms unless people are local, and then it's kind of a mix of in person and on zoom and I send questions, prep questions. So there's journaling, it goes along with it, and a lot of questions and you don't have to answer them all, obviously, but people kind of go through and then we'll discuss them. There's also the kind of nuts and bolts preparation like what does that day look like? What can you expect on that day?

Pam Rivers:

What is this space going to look like? Whoa? You know what do I eat? Do I not eat fasting? All of that, the mechanics we talk about too. And then safety, one of the things that I don't know, that everybody realizes and I have clients that this is a surprise to. They hear about mushroom journeys and tripping and they think they're going to see all of these beautiful things and the trees waving and talking. And what the experience is for this work is it's an inward journey. I have a twin-size futon bed on the ground, eye mask, curated music. We're going in. It's not looking at the trees in nature. This journey is inward in nature and that's a really very different experience.

Pam Rivers:

So long preparation, lots of things happening. Then the weekend itself is three days and many of my clients come from other places so they'll come to town, and even my local people. They stay in an Airbnb, preferably minimum of three nights Sometimes it's two if it's very local, but minimum of three nights. So we do the journeys on a Saturday, friday night. We have in-person preparation and dinner. So I make all the food, which I love to do. I do all the food and everything. I have little special things that I do that I don't tell people, they just they're surprises. But so that Friday night it's preparation, we're together, we're setting the altar, we have food together, we're just opening, right, we're really, really opening. It's lovely Journey day. We start at 11. I go pick them up from the Airbnb and we go till we're done. I don't have a stop time. Longest one was like I think it was 12 and a half hours, yeah, but we do what's needed, Usually very on the outside of things. Usually it's eight, nine hours that we're together. They're not peaking. The peak is two to four hours, typically Two and a half to four hours, maybe Sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, but it's really the unfolding afterwards, right. And then there's food. It's really lovely. I do, I love it. It's beautiful, I want it so beautiful for everybody and it's beautiful for me too.

Pam Rivers:

Day three come back for in-person integration here again, and we go as long as we need to go, and then after that we meet weekly, sometimes twice weekly. So we have an hour a week. Sometimes people want that session all at one time, sometimes they want to split it in two. So it's two half hours, but I'm also just available because people will have, they just want to blurt. They'll be like, oh my God, this thing. I just really I'm like just text me anytime. I may not respond, but you can come here right, right, or heaviness. My last client was she had a lot of her journey was very challenging and she had some real heaviness after. She was fine, but it was heavy. She was still but I call kind of shing, it was heavy. So you know as much as she needed to be in touch with me, I'm available.

Pam Rivers:

I only I only do one a month. Okay, it's three weeks. Sometimes, like these two are the one I have right now, it's three weeks apart, but I prefer one month. I'll sometimes do three weeks. Yeah, it's three weeks apart, but I prefer one month. I'll sometimes do three weeks. Yeah, I've got a client this weekend and I'm already feeling the go in process, but starting Thursday I'm going in, right, I'm in, and I don't schedule things like that. Sunday, monday, monday I'm not available. Like, what happens for me is something and I come into something during that long weekend.

Venessa Krentz:

So you mentioned that you often feel like an instrument in this and that's what I'm picking up on here is that you are present, engaged and solely focused to bring in whatever needs to come in, but also, as you've often mentioned, it is a going inside. So I'm curious what comes out for you then in that environment as this instrument.

Pam Rivers:

I feel like even now with this woman this weekend. It's starting early. I texted her this morning and let her, because I think she's feeling it too and we're having an in-person tomorrow. It's coming early for her, so I'm already starting to get, I feel, some kind of an opening. That's what it feels like to me, like something is opening in me and a connection happening. Happening and it's. And so my preparation, getting the space ready, getting the food ready, all of that is part of it for me, and sometimes I just get these downloads and I'll just write yeah, the client and I do this, this thing called big paper.

Pam Rivers:

I've got those giant post-its, yes, and I'll put their name in the middle, and then I'm just like like things that come and I share those with clients Sometimes I don't, usually I do and then during. Well, so I live in a place with lots of wildlife and I feel this connection with the land and I describe where I am. I'm looking out right now. It's a portal here. The physical place where I am is powerful and the animal stuff. I get these animals, the wildlife, coming in as part of this and so that's happening. And so when people are in the medicine down here on the ground right, I will often like jot down what's happening with the wildlife and like which song was playing and then, like I'll get some download and often it kind of lines up with parts of what's happening in their journey, and then sometimes, when they're in, I stay way back.

Venessa Krentz:

Oh, interesting Do you just get an energetic feel in the moment of what they're needing or not needing.

Pam Rivers:

Sometimes I'm closer, sometimes I'm out completely. I'm way back. I started, actually, with my first client. I got this impulse, I've got this fan and I had this impulse to do some clearing on her. So I always do some kind of a clearing while they're in the medicine and I'll write things. I'll just get these downloads. I learn so much and I find myself saying, like your lessons are my lessons, my lessons are your lessons, their journeys. I'm on the journey, I'm not in there with them, but I am, I'm clear, like I it is. It's so huge to to enter this space and there's this ancestral connection, this collective connection, there's this nature and earth thing connection happening that all just kind of pours through them and me and does things that we can't even describe or name necessarily.

Venessa Krentz:

What I'm hearing is you're both an instrument and an anchor, like you're there, grounded, yeah, in reality, present moment, while they're having this experience in their subconscious psyche and they're tapping into whatever their belief system is and really getting their own work in, but you're there to connect them back to you're safe. This is novel, probably for you, and you may be scared, but it's beautiful and you're safe to sit in your space and take the time you need because I'm here, that's what I'm getting and that's so beautiful, my last client.

Pam Rivers:

Her journey again was very challenging. She described flipping through five to 600 past lives. At every life she was at a funeral or somebody had just died it was that thing like or somebody was dying or had just died and then she would realize it was hers, it was the one that was dying or died and then as soon as she realized that she's whisked away to the next life, she was exhausted and it was all. It was like death and grief and dying. But it made so much sense for her life and the work that she has and I'm not sure what my point was now. She wasn't afraid. You were that anchor.

Pam Rivers:

You were the person for her In our preparation. I feel like we talk a lot about challenging journeys. It's not all peace, love and granola in one nip Right, like some people get that, but a lot of people don't.

Venessa Krentz:

I'm glad you're touching on that, because I think that is a misconception.

Pam Rivers:

And that can be scary for people if you're not prepared. I feel like that's one of my strengths, you know, because my journeys are extremely challenging. I don't get beautiful one love journeys. I don't get that. So, people, I feel like I'm really good at them, knowing that they are, even if it's hell you're there with them. Yeah, and they took medicine, it's working and they're not sane in that and they know challenge is okay, it's good, and so usually there's not a bunch of fear. There's not a lot of fear.

Venessa Krentz:

That's beautiful.

Pam Rivers:

Oh, it's presence. Yeah, presence rather than fear, and for anyone listening.

Venessa Krentz:

I think this is really a key distinction to make, should you choose to explore this as a treatment option, to find someone that is a certified facilitator, that has a protocol, that will share it with you and be there has the experience to support you in it. Definitely.

Pam Rivers:

Yeah.

Venessa Krentz:

That's a whole different thing than using this recreationally.

Venessa Krentz:

Yeah, yeah, quickly I wanted to touch on. Mushrooms are a psychedelic. They're psilocybin, which everybody knows is what it's called. But psilocybin. I want to explain the mechanism of action. It's actually converted to psilocin in the body, which binds to serotonin receptors. So quick review serotonin is a neurotransmitter that's involved in mood perception and cognition.

Venessa Krentz:

So when serotonin receptors are affected, there can be alterations in mood perception and thought processes affected. There can be alterations in mood perception and thought processes. Specifically, xylosin has been shown to act on the theory of mind network, or T-O-M-N, and the default mode network, or the D-M-N in the brain. And I touch on that because, specifically, the DMN is associated with introspection, self-referential thought and is typically overactive in conditions like depression. So I think that is an important thing to really tie in. This is what's happening in the body, and I should add that there's lots of emerging research about the potential benefits of using psilocybin emerging research about the potential benefits of using psilocybin. I want to switch gears a little bit to talk about some of the misconceptions. I want to give a quick history overview and then go from there with anything you want to add in, because, as the professional in the industry, I'm sure you're going to have a lot to say on this one.

Venessa Krentz:

The misconceptions primarily surrounding psilocybin are that it's a dangerous addictive drug, and that goes back to the late 1960s. It was made illegal in the United States in 1968 under the Narcotic Control Act. It was further classified as a Schedule I drug in 1970. Controlled Substances Act. So this means that at that time, in 1970, the federal government viewed this particular plant medicine as having a high potential for abuse, with no currently accepted medical use. This was also, I want to note, at the height of public fear-mongering during President Nixon's war on drugs, asserting that drug use in America was public enemy number one.

Venessa Krentz:

So, me being me, I had to do a bunch of research. First thing I did is I went to the National Institute on Drug Abuse. They have adjusted their stance on this since 1970. They now say research to date suggests that psilocybin does not typically lead to addiction. No, it's not addictive. So I want to clarify what that means. It means that there is no past or current research study that demonstrates a physiologic component of psilocybin that makes it addictive. So therefore, the Schedule I guidelines are neither appropriate nor applicable to this particular plant medicine, even though the federal government has not reclassified it yet. So I suppose psychologically, under certain conditions, it could become habit forming, in the same way as coffee, soda or chocolate. However, as a nutritionist, I'm going to throw in there that we have physiologic addictions to coffee, soda and chocolate and there is no physiologic addictive component in psilocybin. So it doesn't hold up.

Pam Rivers:

And if you were to take large amounts every day, it stops working.

Venessa Krentz:

Oh, interesting yeah. So a dose-dependent therapeutic index.

Pam Rivers:

That's part of why, like with microdosing, you take breaks. You build up tolerance. So if I wanted to do a five-gram journey 20 days in a row, it would stop working in my system. It's a psychological component just around specifically microdosing, and I've had this with clients where you start to think that it's the mushrooms. You know taking the breaks so that you know that you are making these changes. The mushrooms aren't doing this to you, you are the medicine, right, you are making the changes. So I think that the breaks, the integration, that's where it's at, because that's where the change happens. You can do this big journey. It literally slingshots you out there, but then you have to flap your wings, yeah, and that's where people can get into taking it and they would call it spiritual bypassing in this habitual way, chasing the fix. So that could be the psychological addiction Chasing a fix or thinking the only days that I do well are the days I microdose, right, so there's always that.

Venessa Krentz:

There is. With any component, insert anything.

Pam Rivers:

I can't function without caffeine Right.

Venessa Krentz:

I can't function without caffeine. Right, I can't function without my retail shopping habits.

Venessa Krentz:

I can't, whatever the last thing I want to add, because I know that we'll have to wrap this up soon. I could talk with you about this for forever. I'm going to include a show note link for an article from the National Institutes of Health that demonstrates that psilocybin is not physiologically addictive, but that it is actually showing really promising results in treating addiction. Yeah, and I'm just like let's get a heap of pharmaceutical meds, exactly. And so imagine if those big pharmacy companies didn't have everybody taking their pharmaceuticals to mask a problem, if they could treat it naturally with plant medicine and eventually not need it at all. I mean, and stop and like. There's so much here that I think the public just doesn't understand and doesn't have access to.

Venessa Krentz:

No one knows how to discern that. What do you want to add?

Pam Rivers:

I mean. The other misconception that I think is out there and this is kind of flip side to that is that, especially for people with trauma there, some people think it's a cure. All can go and do a journey, do do this deep dive thing and it's going to fix everything Right, or it's going to take it away and some people have really stunning results and things like you do feel like something is gone. That does happen, but the truer trajectory is exactly what I just said is the integration is key and that's part of why I focus so much on it and I have a lot of clients that continue to work with me or they continue to work after that, because you have got to apply the learnings, the lessons, to your life. It's not it's magic, but it's not a panacea. It's not going to remove all of your pain instantaneously. That's not what this is.

Pam Rivers:

So that happens in remarkable ways, but you must do the work. So that happens in remarkable ways, but you must do the work. Yeah.

Venessa Krentz:

And what is the work that you would recommend people do before they start this? Both I'm sharing integration. Is that pause? Let the dust settle absorb the things you're learning.

Pam Rivers:

And process right, like in the integration we are, the the dots have appeared. We're connecting the dots, we're working to understand the content. Sometimes that takes a while, sometimes it's pretty fast and then it's like okay, so what now? What does this mean to me? First, how, what in my life, how I walk on this planet, yeah, and when, where I go with it, and so what? Take it to the world. And now, what does that mean for the larger world? In your work, in your families? Where are the shifts happening? How do you apply this rich stuff that you experienced and learned to both yourself and the world, both In terms of like readiness, nothing set in stone.

Pam Rivers:

I feel like you know, as I said, I have some people that I have a client that we just booked. She's an incredible therapist, very experienced. She's done, and she's done so much work on herself. She is incredible. She doesn't even know what she wants in this. She doesn't really want anything. She's just like I'm ready for the next level. So that's what she said. We have that.

Pam Rivers:

And then I have another client right now Love her, and she's a hot mess. She is a hot mess. She's got anxiety, post-divorce anxiety. She lost her footing on the planet. She lost herself with very, very difficult divorce. She can't find herself again. So that's what we're working on. She's microdosing, not even going near a deep dive. Yet we're near. She is not ready. It would be so destabilizing for her. So that's part of going to somebody that knows what they're doing. It is not always the right time be so destabilizing for her. So that's part of going to somebody that knows what they're doing. It is not always the right time. I tell people now, like I don't work with everybody and there are some people. No, no, it can be really destabilizing.

Pam Rivers:

My last client that had the five to 600, this woman is she's former helicopter pilot. She's an emergency room doc. She has got some teeth and she was destabilized a bit. She held it together. She's good, but that heaviness. She was whoa, she's got all the tools. He has got all the tools. So sometimes it is not the right time. I mean woman with the high anxiety. She, my little hot mess. She is not ready for a deep dive yet. I think she will be, but right now she's got to find herself again. She's. She lost her feet.

Venessa Krentz:

Yeah, what I'm hearing is really being willing to do the work, not necessarily before. Go to somebody that is able to help with the discernment of is this the right time and, if not, maybe make some recommendations. Yeah, and then, if it is the right time, be ready to do the work. This is not a 1960s happy mushroom trip. This is sitting in your shadows and getting very intimately reacquainted with yourself, because on the other end of this is growth, is happiness. Happiness not meaning the absence of these things that were making you unhappy before. It's a perspective shift.

Pam Rivers:

It's a radical perspective shift and it is a transformation. It's truly a transformation and I'm not trying to talk badly about the service center models, the clinic models, but it's a lot faster there, right, I like what I do because of the depth and they take your time. Big commitment. One of my clients said going to PAM is not a drive-thru car car lock. It's not. There is that and that can be really effective and helpful. Not saying that that's bad, but this is. It is a time of transformation.

Pam Rivers:

You won't be the same at the end. That's the truth. Hair warning too.

Venessa Krentz:

All right, Pam, where can people find you?

Pam Rivers:

I'm going to include links through Instagram. You may find too. Like I said, I don't really advertise. I've played with the website. I have one that I don't want to use.

Venessa Krentz:

I totally thought I had looked at your website back in the day. Maybe I didn't. I pulled it.

Pam Rivers:

I had one and I pulled it you did Okay.

Venessa Krentz:

So I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. Thank you so much, Pam. This has been incredible.

Venessa Krentz:

I think what you're doing as a gift, you're giving back to this collective consciousness with your role in facilitating this kind of alternative treatment option for the people that want it right that come and find it and are ready to do the work, and I want to encourage anyone that enjoyed listening to this episode to come back, because we are definitely going to do a part two. We have so much more to talk about. Pam had a can I call it a? Spiritual pilgrimage, I don't know? Yeah, to Ireland. She had an amazing trip to Ireland recently we need to talk about. We've got some new moon antics in the ocean to talk about witches, mermaids, soul contracts, synchronicity, and we want to touch on what it means to step into the power of remembrance, and that is going to be a really powerful episode too, yeah, so thank you, pam, it's been a pleasure, as always.

Pam Rivers:

I really appreciate your time yeah.

Venessa Krentz:

All right.

Pam Rivers:

You take care. Bye, bye, bye.

Venessa Krentz:

In closing, I want to offer a reminder that your voice matters and I would love to connect with you. If you feel called to contribute to this community, please reach out. You can email topic ideas, suggestions for interviews and feedback to Venessa at squatsands seances dot com. That's Venessa, with an e v e n e s s? A at squats and seances. All spelt out one word in its entirety. You can find new episodes of squats and Seances on all major podcast platforms and the adjacent vlog cast on my YouTube channel. I'll link the YouTube channel in the reference notes for you. Find and follow me on social media. At Squats and Seances, I'm on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok. Until the next time, may you continue to live well, embrace authenticity, question everything and, of course, stay gritty.